INTERVIEW WITH RAVINDRA KUMAR JAIN Professor of Sociology - JNU University A NOT SO DEMOCRATIC INDIAN SOCIETY Serge Berthier.- India is a very diverse country and, we are constantly told by Indians, the world's largest democracy. But when we ask Indians why the civil society is still very much what it was centuries ago, with endless division of castes, subcastes and communities that cling to traditions which are not very democratic in essence, the ready-made answer is that it was a British plot, the second cliche being that it is a sign of tolerance. But is it tolerance and/or the British that pushed the Union government to take the decision in December 1999 to include a long list of 132 castes, subcastes and communities with the backward classes, rather than political tinkering in its worst form (1)? Ravindra Kumar Jain.- To harp today on the colonial past is certainly somewhat anachronistic because things have moved in the last fifty years in a way which was probably not intended. You are right to point out that the institution of the caste, and I would add, the institution of the family, both, have taken today a shape which is not at all in keeping with the traditional premises of these institutions. Those policies of reservation, for the scheduled castes, scheduled tribes and other backward classes (2) mean that the government has indeed been tinkering with those traditional institutions. It created movements at the ground level that were not fully anticipated by the government and the elite, and indeed, has given a new lease of life to the caste system. Traditionally, the high castes such as the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas, the Vaisyas and the priests (3) were the sinecure of attention. But today more and more castes are striving for a status which was initially created for the low castes such as the untouchable, because it brings benefits.
SB.- Isn't it contradictory with the widespread notion that there is in India a large emerging middle class which, to my understanding is cutting across the caste structure? RKJ.- It is true that we have this emerging phenomenon. In percentage, the growth of the middle class is the fastest. Nevertheless, the truth is that India creates more poor and downtrodden people in the lower classes and lower castes every day than it creates middle class people. So it is all relative. Of course, from the business point of view, the growth of the middle class is an attractive phenomenon and there are a lot of talks about the prospects of the future (4). Advertising and communication have grown tremendously over the past twenty years, not only the radio but also television and if Internet has not reached the villages, television has. The business community hopes to tap a large class of consumers who are relatively better off than the destitute, but what is really happening is that the gulf between the underprivileged and the middle class and the upper classes is widening.
SB.- You mentioned earlier that the institution of the family is evolving in a way that was not expected. Yet, arranged marriages are still very much the norm (5). What is different? RKJ.- I have talked of class and caste but the family and kinship network is in India a very important element in the sense that, when one looks at the models for imitation, the way in which reference group behavior takes place, then here the upper classes have large families basically as a matter of choice, because, either they want to have businesses kept in the family, or because, even if they may like to have individualistic businesses because of the westernization trend, they will be headed by family members. Therefore, as a matter of protection, either way, the choice of the elite is to have large families. If this is for them a matter of choice, for the lower classes, it might often become a matter of necessity. It means simply more earning hands in the family, and so they may opt for the larger type of family. On the other hand, the middle classes which are sandwiched between the lowest group and the elite, may have the necessity of choice. It means that the choice is to imitate their reference group which is the upper classes. So, they may have a necessity to have some kind of kinship links and wider safety net for their aspiration. As a result of this pattern, contrary to the view that with the modernization and westernization the family is shrinking, there is in India a lot of evidence that family structure, not strictly patrilineal or traditional but in terms of kinship network is still very important. In that attitude, caste, class, family and kinship are all interrelated factors.
SB.- I understand now why the government and the politicians are only paying lip service to the cause of population control. RKJ.- And if one does a serious analysis, the startling conclusion is that contrary to the view that, everywhere, the nuclear family is becoming prominent, in India kinship networks, because of this kind of context, are still very important. The larger you are, the more power or protection you have.
SB.- How then a feudalistic society, because what you describe is what characterized every primitive social organization, can claim to be the world's largest democracy? RKJ.- It is only a slogan. The kind of electoral democracy that we are having is, unfortunately, matched up with a fairly semiliterate or illiterate large population.
SB.-You mean they are easy to manipulate and therefore the process is not democratic at all since they can be bribed easily. RKJ.- No, they are wise people because they have experienced every election for a very long time now. But what is emerging is that the elections have reinforced their kinship affiliation and group solidarity at various levels, including within the caste system. Therefore the very idea of representative democracy which is the future of the civil society, does not exist here as it exists in the West and South-East Asia (6).
SB.- Group solidarity and class solidarity have not entirely disappeared in the West, and in South-East Asia, kinship affiliation is still very strong. RKJ.- Yes, with an authoritarian bend in the democratic process. It is an interesting subject but, in India, it is a populist bend. Since the democracy we have is based on the first past the post electoral system we can't achieve a representative democracy where the interest of the people are crystallized along non-ascribed issues, while, at the moment achievement issues in trade or business have a populist appeal in which the caste factor becomes paramount. Solidarity and kinship recognition are forged along those lines and I agree that these network systems are not fully in tune with the idea of a democracy in a fully civil society.
SB.- What can break those lines to turn the attention away from the achievement issues to non-ascribed ones which are generally less attractive in the short-term but fundamental for the future of the society? RKJ.- Education is the key if we want an enlightened democracy, but if we have good middle and secondary schools and a good higher education system, even open university - which caters to the need of the educated and adult population and is fast becoming very popular - is modernizing its method with very popular multimedia package. But primary education which should be compulsory and free is not yet there. It is a big lacuna. More than anything else democracy has to be oiled by education.
SB.- Today 48,000 children are born every day in the country. The country has 550,000 primary schools but such high birth rate requires an additional 90,000 schools every year. It looks an impossible proposition. RKJ- That is right and because of the caste problem and kinship networks we were talking about, India is in a catch 22 situation (7).
SB.- China has been able to tackle its population problem. India seems very proud to be a country of 1 billion people, and presents the fact that it will sooner or later be more populous than China as an achievement. But what is there to be proud of? RKJ.- Only the context of caste can explain that. Castes have taken a new lease of life, as I said earlier, because in our democracy, representation is in fact on the basis of such narrow loyalties rather than on the knowledge of those non-ascribed achievement criteria we should seek, such as population control for example or education (8).
SB.- Democracy, in other words, is reduced to a game of numbers and the majority rule. Since loyalties based on caste delivered the numbers, democracy is very much anchored into such a setup. Fifty years ago, the elite thought that castes were a thing of the past. With a better education, people would broaden their loyalties and that will be the end of the caste feeling. But it is the reverse that is happening. Why such failure? RKJ.- Yes, that is very much the case, during the last phases of nationalism, people had put a lot of faith in the State. Some kind of governance was essential but was not then provided. That takes us to fields which are not my strongest.
SB.- Can the Indian society break free one day of the current setup and evolve into a modern civil society? RKJ- I am not optimistic, because at the same time the problem of violence in the "Bimaru" States of India is endemic. When a radical solution is thought about by the people, it takes a violent turn. Bimaru means sick in Hindi and it is the appellation given to Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan, because insurgency there is becoming more prominent (9). How to control that tendency is a difficult problem. Unless the castes themselves realize that these narrow loyalties will not pay off in the long term, that it is not going to give very solid returns in, say, 20 years or so, that a civil society is the solution, then the future scenario is not very good.
SB.- Who can bring change to the pattern of problems? Do you need a more authoritarian power, although it seems a doubtful proposition, not only because no one has the moral authority to take the lead, but because of the fragmentation of India herself? RKJ.- There are two. The first one is education, but it's maybe wishful thinking at this stage. The other one is the nonresident Indian community (NRI).
SB.- Although there are twenty million overseas Indians, it does not seem much compared to a billion at home. Furthermore, they don't seem to be investing in India in the scale the overseas Chinese are investing in China. Why would they bring some impetus towards a more modern society? RKJ.- The Chinese diaspora is investing five times more per capita in their country than the Indian diaspora in India. Why? What are the factors at play? Overseas diasporas are a useful tool for the social scientist because it is an experiment set naturally. The way they behave helps to understand the original society they left. Today they have acquired the cyber dimension, I know it is a cliche, but that is where my optimism lies. If you look at the United States where we have a large community, there is a transnational and a sub-national kinship at play at the same time. The Gujarat, the Penjabese, the Bengalese have their own associations in the United States and so on.
SB.- But that is rather on ethnic lines. RKJ.- So what! If kinship and ethnicity can contribute towards the modernization and development, so be it.
SB.- How does it fit with the concept of Hinduism branded by the current ruling party (BJP) as the core of the Indian nation? RKJ.- The Hindu civilization being the Indian civilization is an old cliche as are the tenets that Hinduism is a way of life, that it is liberal, that it is assimilative. All these are what I call the culturalization of politics. I mean that the Hindu symbol is becoming politicized within the framework of the nation, within India. It flows into caste and religion.
SB.- Another old cliche is that India is a secular state and Pakistan a theocratic one. Nevertheless, quite recently there were heated discussions at the parliament about the right to set up religious shrines or not (10). RKJ.- You have touched upon a very complex issue which in India has been bandied about a lot. Nehru had one vision of secularism, Gandhi’s secularism was another type. The fact is that it is the wishful thinking of certain politicians of the elite class which made secularism the creed of India, but even in nationalism, in those days, there was a religious pandering in India. On the other side in Pakistan today, there is reassessment of Jinnah, the leader of the Muslim League (11). Some say that he was truly a secularist. Yet, its political stand resulted in a theocratic state later. So I think that all opposition in India between secularism and religious state is misplaced. I do not want here to discuss Pakistan, as it is an issue which is complicated by foreign policy matters. But from the Indian point of view I would go along with the statement that not only castes but religions are festering issues in some ways.
SB.- The great Indian writer Naipaul, who is actually an overseas Indian, took the view that overseas, although Hinduism is strong, it is not politicized but cultural. Why can't it be the same at home? RKJ.- When I was young and discovered his writings I rebelled against his ideas but with maturity, I realized that he was very right. Expatriate Indians, when they think about religion, it is not the politicized aspect of religion they think of, but the cultural aspect which they emphasize and celebrate. And it is a very deep feeling, a feeling of belonging probably. Trinidad & Tobago are a good example. Here, the Indian community is bombarded by the American media. Yet, every evening, you have these Hindu rituals in the houses of Indian people.
SB.- Does it mean that the BJP which wants to give a Hindu colour to India is right? RKJ.- Well, when I then use the word Hinduism, it is the wrong one. What is happening, and it is dangerous, is that Hinduism, as a word, has been politicized. I don’t think it will have mileage but it will do damage.
SB.- You are not a political analyst, but here your commentary is very much a political one. As a social scientist, you feel that the BJP is wrong. Hinduism cannot have in the long term a political flavor. Then how do you explain what is happening, its current success and its policies? RKJ.- The Congress party is a divided house, the other parties are regionalised, along castes precisely. For the rest, I do not know. Civil society and universality is what is needed but we don't have it.
SB.- What is the importance of corruption in the system of governance and in the society? RKJ.- People believe that corruption is everywhere. It is not so. Big companies have scrupulous honesty and it is their way to progress. Philanthropy and the kind of educated input the business elite generate tend to create some balance and controls. Pollution, environmental and moral, are the product of the small fries.
SB.- And at the political level, how large is the corruption? RKJ.- No doubt that the politicians are corrupt, and we should seize on every opportunity to bring the house in order, but the hype about corruption which is done by the people at large is worse than the actual case of corruption. It is quite common to hear in the business community that you can’t do anything without paying a bribe. According to those people, there is no way you can pay your own telephone or electricity bills without bribing someone somewhere (12). I decided to check it myself, when I came back here. It took me a fortnight to sort out my bills but I did not have to bribe anyone. It is of course a small example, but the result of the hype is that consumerism is associated in the mind of the people with corruption. Every affluent person you meet will tell you all the devious ways he had to go through to get things done anywhere in the country. A pollution of the mind of that sort has to be controlled somehow because it does not play any constructive role to make the young people think right. One really wonders why the intelligentsia of the country is playing up such a game and it does not build up self confidence in ourselves.
SB.- Talking about self-confidence, has the fact that India is now a nuclear country affected the attitude of the elite or the people? RKJ.- I call this bomb the coca-cola bomb. In my view, it is a tool in the hands of the politicians. It was their way to align themselves with whatever the media-hype of the day was or is, but such a decision has no solid foreign policy foundation for India.
SB.- You paint a very strange tapestry of the Indian society. It is very much entrenched in an outmoded civilizational model, it lacks self-confidence. It is, in short, without a vision and some would say without a future as it stands. Why is the Indian society, the fastest growing society on earth, moored into such immobility? RKJ.- I presume that one can't put the clocks back. The British were busy transforming India into a class of clerks. They have inoculated in us a kind of theoretical mentality of a kind you do not see in Singapore or Malaysia. The concepts we work with today are completely outdated but they are alive. Where else would a village school with a black board be considered a gift to the backward classes? (12) We have a very deep problem. There, in a university, you see that the bookshops are full of books, not on computers or science, but on all sort of ideological thinking, on education, on ideas to debate. In India, an intellectual activity is considered much more important than an industrial activity.
SB.- In the XVIII century, the aristocrat class did not work and only intellectual activities were considered worthwhile. To work was to debase yourself. But in India, the business community is very active, and businessmen are recognized hero models. RKJ.- Yes, but in the context of caste.
SB.- You mentioned earlier that there is a growing regionalisation of the political parties, along the caste lines. It also means that there is a growing devolution of power to the States, which are very much setup along ethnic lines. What is your opinion on such a trend? RKJ.- It means in a way that an ethnization of the caste system is taking place. Max Wilberg wrote somewhere that the caste system was a kind of narrowing down of the society. Now, what is happening is its opening-up. Rather than remaining fully religious, it is becoming ethnicised. As a result many smaller groups are coming together.
SB.- Then it is a start in the right direction, from a segmented society to a more cohesive one. RKJ.- Actually, this is a dangerous trend in the sense that we may have to live the entire history of the racial type system of caste coming into being. I feel that unless we have a kind of liberal democratic setup in which people would really go after an Indian form of civil society by which I don’t mean an Hindu form, an Indian form, it is scary.
SB.- An Indian form of civil society means that India should adopt a uniform civil code. RKJ.- Yes, but no one wants to do it. I think the problems are fairly intractable. I personally can’t see the end of this caste factor for the next twenty years. It means of course new tensions. I can see people living in protected areas, the trend is already there in Delhi, with their private security guards.
SB.- But why would the tensions be worse if the economy is going to deliver a reasonable improvement in the life of the people? RKJ.- BJP and BHP are inculcating an ideology that will further aggravate the caste feeling. You can see that the government is after Pakistan. It is a classic tactic to divert attention. BJP has been full of contradictions since it is in power. One says this and another says that, nothing gets done. In numerous instances, the less you say about the state, the better.
SB.- You are an academic and academics in India are well-known for being radical. Do you think that the average Indian shares your worries? RKJ.- I am not sure I represent the common view because I have been abroad a lot. Plus I am a Jain and we are peaceful people. To go abroad has some benefits. The distance gives you some perspective, foreign elements can be used as a reference. What I could say, is that in many respects, the British did us in, but those people that call themselves the elite, have to really present a picture which is going to be viable and can be worked out, ignoring the hype which has been created during the past fifty years. Only then can we harness the future.
Winter 2000
Notes: 1.- Between June 1997 and August 1998, the National Commission for Backward Classes rendered advises, which are statutorily and judicially binding on the government to include a further 132 castes, sub-castes and communities in the list of the Backward Classes (BCs). The government complied only in January 2000. According to P.S. Krishnan, the Secretary of the Commission, 77 of them existed already in the Central List of BCs as they relate to 38 artisanal castes, 13 rendering "lowly" services, 12 being non agricultural and 9 agricultural labour castes, 2 mendican castes, 2 peasant castes and 1 nomadic. A further 37, according to the Commission, were also listed in various States lists or in the Mandal List. Three States and one territory (Tripura, Rajasthan, Orissa and Chandigarh) had resisted the creation of a list of BCs, but the Supreme Court forced them to act in 1990. The Commission admits only to 18 "new" castes, 7 artisan ones, 4 of lowly services, 2 of agricultural labour, 1 of animal rearing and 1 ex-Devadasi. Looking at the lists established along economic activities, one wonders if the caste system is not today a substitute to trade union activities. In any case, the segmentation of the society is growing by the day since the Commission is proud to outline that it has rejected 381 castes or synonyms of castes applying for recognition. Nevertheless, it also accepted more than 369 demands. Today virtually 75% of the population is classified along its economic or religious activities either in Bcs, or scheduled castes or schedules tribes, while according to an anthropologist, Risley, there are 2,378 main castes among the Hindus only. 2.- The objectives of the Constitution included Equality and Fraternity. How to achieve equality of status and opportunity gave rise to the policy of reservation of seats and special concessions to the socially downtrodden. Instead of breaking the class/caste system as the French did during and after the Revolution with the adoption of a civil code for all, the Indians went the other way: they enshrined in the Constitution the inegalitarian order of the society. 3.- Originally, the Hindu society was divided into four castes as the Brahman were said to have sprung from Purusha's face (hence they have the highest status), the Kshatriya from his arms, the Vaisya from his thighs and the Sudra from his feet (hence their low status). The division must in fact have evolved over centuries along the functions of a particular segment of the society: the Brahmanas were mostly involved in priesthood and the pursuit of knowledge, tasks which put them in position of authority, the Kshatriyas were involved with war and governance (they became members of the ruling families of India), the Vaisyas in agriculture and trade, the Sudras doing the menial work. 4.- A new report from the National Council of Applied Economic Research (NCAER) estimates the consuming class in 1994-1994 at about 165 million people and the very rich at 5.7 million. By 2001, it calculates that the consuming class will be over 310 million. Such growth is doubtful. The number of destitute is estimated at 202 million and the poor at 277 million. There are in the country about 180 million households, an average Indian household being 5.7 people. Only 30 to 35% of the rural households have electricity connections. 5.- In an interview with Asian Affairs, the Chief Election Commissioner, Manohar Singh Gill, made the same observation: "For good democracy you must have reasonable economic development and near total literacy" he said. "Now those we have not quite yet, even if we have better development since the growth rate is peaking up. Hopefully we will share this development, and the literacy is moving upwards, but we definitely have to address some fundamental agenda of the country and in that there should be some bipartisan agreements. Let’s put three only on such agenda: population control, total literacy and some kind of justice." 6.- It is estimated that 45 million children in India in the year 2000 don't know how to read. They will swell the rank of the 291 million adult Indians that can't read and have no education. 7.- The BJP is in favour of a 2-child norm policy. However, the lack of common approach between the Centre and the States government on the problem means that a strong policy of disincentives is unlikely, and policy based on incentives have always failed in the past for the reason outlined in the interview. 8.- Many insurgency movements exist in India. Recently, twenty-three policemen were killed in a land mine blast triggered by People’s War Group activists in Madhya Pradesh. The incident was the worst of its kind in the state since the escalation of Naxal activities in the late 1980’s. It is known that at least 18 PWG groups, of 12-15 members each, now operate in nine districts bordering Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra and Orissa. In December 1999, the former state transport minister, Mr Likhiram Kanvre, was hacked to death by suspected PWG activists. More than 110 policemen in the state were killed by the Naxalites from 1989-90. And in Kashmir, guerrilla activities are a daily occurrence. For example, on February 24, it was reported that 11 people, including four Pakistani intruders, five militants and a BSF officer, were killed in a two-day period. Four police personnel were injured and an Army jawan abducted, while six militants were arrested and another laid down his arms. 9.- The Legislative Assembly of Uttar Pradesh (population: 140 millions) recently enacted a Bill to stop random growth of shrines, according to Lalji Tandon, a senior BJP leader and cabinet minister in Uttar Pradesh. The media says that the Bill is a glaring admission of failure of both governance and social engineering and that it does address core issues. A similar legislation exists in Rajasthan (population: 50 millions) since 1954 to regulate the construction of religious buildings in urban areas but not elsewhere. Although the Bill is secular in essence - all religions being treated equally - the government officials have unfortunately declared that the objectives were also to counter anti-national and ISI activities in the state, singling out the Muslim community for the mushroom growth in the number of temples, mosques and madarsas that the media links primarily to lack of employment opportunities, most "religious buildings" being simply the set up for numerous small business activities. The BJP points out that between 1980 and today the number of madarsas on the Uttar Pradesh-Nepal border has increased from 61 to 121, and on the Nepal side from 14 to 42. Mosques on the Indian side went up from 74 to 146. What explains this growth in construction of mosques and madarsas, asked BJP officials taking into account that the Muslim population growth in the region varies from 35% to 52% only? (Another worrying trend is that the corresponding growth in the number of Hindus varies from 15 to 25% only). Many consider that terrorist and anti-national activities are carried out from mosques and madarsas. Their sudden growth could then attributed to Pakistan nefarious activities. The danger of such interpretation is obvious. It contains the recipe for further communal tension between Muslims and Hindus. 10.- M.A Jinnah was the leader of the Muslim League in 1946. He bitterly opposed the Congress. However, it is Lord Mounbatten that introduced the idea of partitioning the Punjab and Bengal states along ethnic and religion lines where the Muslim and Hindus population were mixed when the creation of Pakistan became inevitable. 11.- Power companies complain that about one third of the electricity is stolen, but it is also recognized that because of poor transmission, the average technical loss exceeds 50% at peak time. 12.- It is quite clear that there has been a shift from ideology-based governance to adjustment-based governance over the past 20 years, and it is quite obvious that the cult of the family in a few parties has greatly harmed the political process and governance in India. However, there are also obvious signs that the current National Democratic Alliance, and its main element, the BJP party, want to tackle the issues they have inherited, but the Central government is working within a bureaucratic and constitutional environment which stifles new initiatives. All too often, new laws, democratically adopted to tackle old problems, are challenged in the courts on one ground or another by an aggrieved party and sabotaged by design or by incompetence by one bureaucracy or another. Winter 2000 | |||
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